Thread: HP and JKR

moderan - Sorry, I overlooked your post somehow.

Though some here may doubt it, in my mind there is no question. JK Rowling is a genius. She deserves every bit of the praise and every coin of the realm that she has accumulated. I've never had the talent or imagination for fiction writing of even the simplest sort, and Rowling's ability to create such a believable world and believable characters, to make us accept magicians as everyday folk we're apt to meet on the 'bus or in the local 'round the corner is awe-inspiring. Her talent is on a level with Tolkien.

If that's blasphemy then show me the way to the stake and I'll help stack the wood myself. It's what I believe.

No problem there. I have no difficulty accepting your premise. Whether I agree or not is immaterial. There have been others with talent on a level or perhaps larger than Ms. Rowling's to make that "magicians as everyday folk" idea work (I'd submit Fritz Leiber's Conjure Wife and Poul Anderson's Operation Chaos series as prime examples, or "Bewitched", which was derived from Leiber's novel), but that's a quibble.
The synthesis is quite good, and has been subsumed into general popculture as a recognizable trope.
Whether the satire is on a level with Swift or Voltaire, as you're claiming, is another matter, and a tale for Father Time to relate.

As writers we are re-writing what has been written before.

Maybe you are. But don't lay that crap on me.
Again, it only takes a tiny bit of thought to figure out the bankruptcy of the oft-repeated, but inanely sophomoric "everything's been done" screed.

Try it.

moderan - Swift or Voltaire? I will readily equate Rowling with human authors, but not with the gods. Why did you believe I would make such a claim or commit such a heresy?

Huxley, Koestler, Malraux, and company are mere mortals. With their works I will readily make comparison, but certainly never with the works of such as you mention.

Rowling's satire is biting, but has neither the grand sweep of Voltaire nor the wicked, heart-stopping punch of Swift.

But Rowling's satire does sting. Is not Rita Skeeter the perfect type of many of today's journalists and, indeed, one or two politicians I could mention but won't? She reminds me of a certain media person in Belize whose motto seems to be, 'if it didn't happen that way it should have'. Rita's behaviour cuts deep as a comment about today's reporters and their media houses and their public.

And it goes much deeper than that. You must consider Rita's performance over time and not judge her too quickly after one or two of her obnoxious appearances. Rita is not flighty. She appears so, but she is intelligent, passionate, a clever schemer, and she harbours a deep hatred for Harry and all he represents.

Are there not, in today's world, public figures either in or out of the media who appear harmless, flighty, with a sting no worse than a mosquito? And when we laugh at them, do we not often forget that the sting of the mosquito can carry malaria and yellow fever?

lin - Harry is loaded with both satire and with political, religious, and social commentary from beginning to end.

Sam W - I remember failing this test once befoe about 50 years ago. Remind me.

lin - Sorry if I touched a nerve. If you have absolutely original, non-derivative material, I would like to see it.

But neither Shakespeare nor I mind that others have already beaten down the path where we tread.

The only two books still in print since the fifteen century are the Bible and The Nostradamus Code.

lin - Harry is loaded with both satire and with political, religious, and social commentary from beginning to end.

I gathered that you think that. And think it's really cute that you do.

What I don't anticipate is you being able to demonstrate that in any way.

Originally Posted by garza

moderan - Swift or Voltaire? I will readily equate Rowling with human authors, but not with the gods. Why did you believe I would make such a claim or commit such a heresy?

Huxley, Koestler, Malraux, and company are mere mortals. With their works I will readily make comparison, but certainly never with the works of such as you mention.

Rowling's satire is biting, but has neither the grand sweep of Voltaire nor the wicked, heart-stopping punch of Swift.

But Rowling's satire does sting. Is not Rita Skeeter the perfect type of many of today's journalists and, indeed, one or two politicians I could mention but won't? She reminds me of a certain media person in Belize whose motto seems to be, 'if it didn't happen that way it should have'. Rita's behaviour cuts deep as a comment about today's reporters and their media houses and their public.

And it goes much deeper than that. You must consider Rita's performance over time and not judge her too quickly after one or two of her obnoxious appearances. Rita is not flighty. She appears so, but she is intelligent, passionate, a clever schemer, and she harbours a deep hatred for Harry and all he represents.

Are there not, in today's world, public figures either in or out of the media who appear harmless, flighty, with a sting no worse than a mosquito? And when we laugh at them, do we not often forget that the sting of the mosquito can carry malaria and yellow fever?

Who's Rita Skeeter?
garza, I'm merely expanding the scope to allow further discussion. You did not compare Rowling to such explicitly. For that matter, I think Hunter Thompson or Frank Zappa are much more effective satirists than Huxley, et al. Frederik Pohl moreso than either.
It's hard to say what societal mores will be like in 80 or 100 years.

Sam W - Thanks. That's the kind of fact - not trivia, facts are never trivial - that is, in itself, a comment on Western civilisation. There were serious works on nature, mathematics, philosophy, and the human condition around at that time, but the only two that have remained in constant demand are, well, perhaps I'd best not say what they are, in my mind. Best not go there.

lin - Did not my example of Rita Skeeter demonstrate Rowling's satire? And satire of that type always carries with it a certain level of social commentary. People today seem to love the Rita Skeeters we have among us more than ever, just as the people around Harry loved Rita. Does that not, in itself, constitute a comment on our values as a society?

Let me ask you this, and please do not take offence. Have you read all the Harry Potter books, all the way through? And have you read the five books I mentioned, or at least some of them? And have you given serious thought to how they compare, and how Rowling might fit into that group?

Oh, no,. I'm just idly chattering about books I've never read. What a fucked-up insulting question.

But I can see how it would be easier to toss up some sand like that than actually try to buttess the remarkalbe (to say the least) theory that the Potter books are social commentaries or satire.

I always saw them as cleverly disquised commercials for term life insurance, actually.

Hmm. It would be best if we could tone down the rhetoric just a tad...I take it that Rita Skeeter is a character in the HP books, a reporter of some kind?
Are there perhaps more examples of the author's social commentary and satire that the unwashed, such as myself, might hang our hats on?

moderan - I'll certainly agree with you about Frederik Pohl. 'The Space Merchants' is a good example of sustainability. It's message is as relevant today as it was, ah, how many years ago? Given the recent events off Chandeleur, perhaps even more relevant.

Rita Skeeter is a reporter and is a really nasty, ah, witch. She twists everything to suit her own agenda, and is enormously popular. If you need a satirical comment on today's seemingly lightheaded but possibly devious - and dangerous - media, you need look no further than Rita Skeeter.

You really ought to try Potter again. As was pointed out earlier, the first two books and well into the third the voice is somewhat that of aunty talking to kiddies. Even so, it's very well written and a delightful story. By the time you reach the end of 'The Goblet of Fire' you should be hooked. For one thing Harry is no longer a little boy but is growing up.

lin - Best thing, I think, we leave it there.

moderan - Sorry. Your last post came in as I was writing this one. Yes I can certainly point to other examples of satire and social commentary. Give me some room to find the best examples. I'm not sure how many volumes I have in the house - people keep borrowing them. I happen to have 'Goblet of Fire' at my elbow, but I'll have to hunt for the others. I'll get back to you.

Rita is a tabloid reporter. I suppose she could be considered a satire on tabloid reporters, if anybody considers that a social commentary.

Hmm. It sounds like the author's writing grew as the series did, but the elements still seem a trifle simplistic. I'll try the books again sometime. Not right now. I have too many other things on my plate.
I have a taste for satire, so to look at it from that angle may satisfy my appetite. Space Merchants was written 60 years ago.

moderan - I just wrote a great long post giving some more examples of Rowling's satire on football, education, and mail. It was lost somewhere among the clouds. I'm writing this on my oldest computer, a 1996 Pentium Pro running at 160 mHz with 64 meg of RAM. In '96 this was top-of-the-line. I still use if for writing, but sometimes it shows its age and forgets things, just like a person. I don't have time to re-create the post just now.

There is a running commentary through the books on the civil rights of immigrants.

The books do mature, and as you deliberately look I think you'll find some real gems.

While I expected disagreement, I never thought that my thesis would touch so raw a nerve as it did. Sorry about that.

60 years? So long ago? I read it in high school, and I graduated 53 years ago, so I guess I shouldn't be surprised. But consider the book in the context of today's world. Its message remains valid.

Controversy is good. We just need to be PG, not necessarily PC. No need to be sorry on anyone's part. If the discussion continues, I may have to take the tiller or serve drinks periodically, that's all.
I don't have the Potter books, but I can get them. I'll take a look. Space Merchants I have. I read it first in high school, and I graduated a mere 31 years ago. Pohl and the late CM Kornbluth wrote quite a few things that have stood the test of time...if JK Rowlings work can equal, say, The Marching Morons, then she's got something.
Again, I find your initial premise interesting. It seems some others do also, judging by the pageviews. If worst comes to worst, fodder for an article, if such hasn't been done already